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  #11  
Old 01-08-2006
Darzee Darzee is offline
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Also, I should mention I'm finding a permanent home for the Boa and the person who is adopting her has a huge set up and other large snakes. I totally admit my ignorance of these creatures and I sought proffessional help about her needs. I was also concerned about my safety, and my pet's, which is why she won't come home with me. Thank you for your input though...it didn't sound abrasive, just your opinion

But Jim, for the life of me, I can't figure out what you meant by this:

"A local humane organization here is reputed to keep brocoli in a habitat for a large Burmese"

Huh???
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darzee
Oh yeah, and even a lowly snake will move away from living in its own feces given an option.
I have on several cases asked the judge in open court if a person was confined to a cell would that violate the cruel and unusual punishment provision of our constitution. Sure used to make a point. I haven't used it in a while as my opinion of our world has certainly taken a real beating lately.

Oliver Wendall Holmes once said that if a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example. Our country sure is changing.

But I digress...

Call it love, call it instinct - I don't care which. Animals react and remember. No matter what level you ascribe to them, be they gold fish, guinea pigs, or golden retreivers, I offer them all the same leverl of respect as I think Ghandi was right when he said that the greatness of a nation and its morals will be judged by the way it treats its animals.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mark Kumpf
Call it love, call it instinct - I don't care which.
LL Rue, a famous hunter and wildlife photographer, surprised me very much when he wrote in "Deer of North America" that deer are very affectionate with each other; he continues on in the same paragraph to say that he refuses to apologize for saying that deer express emotion. I have observed affectionate behavior in deer myself frequently, but most of my similarly conservative hunting friends tell me that it's just "coincidental grooming" or some such.

Rue says basically that if it looks like affection and quacks like affection, it's probably affection. Just proves that if you spend enough time watching animals with an open mind, anything might happen!

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  #14  
Old 01-09-2006
ACO278 ACO278 is offline
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I think snakes are great animals, we had a call very similar to this with a 6ft. Python. This loser had been living in an older rv on these peoples property, he moved in his snake to their garage, and stopped feeding it and moved out. Six moths later the once friendly snake has become so agressive that the people couldn't go near the tank without it trying to attack. They owners of the house got in touch with the Smithsonian in D.C. trying to see if they would take it or what we could do to move it. Since the GIANT tank it was in probably weighed on the plus side of 500 pounds. That night the snake, tank and all disappeared. The lady had contacted its owner and said she called us so I assume he took it. I don;t know how. but no one has heard from him or his snake again. Good luck with this and don't let anyone tell you they dont have enough brains to know when they're hungry, this one was PISSED!
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2006
jimbo jimbo is offline
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I knew it!

I will not apologize for my my remarks, however I do regret having offended anyone. Yes as a matter of fact I do have knowledge to back up my statements. I studied for several years with a field expert on all reptiles. He has a Bachelor's in Zoology, and a Master's in Biology, teaches at University of Texas, and writes a column for Reptile Magazine at times. I have a fair amount of knowledge in their physiological characteristics, and behaviour.

I did not wish to imply that there is no way to mistreat a snake.

Chumli,
I did not say anything about a snake that is sick from starving and thirst, not suffering. Snakes need food and water. I did imply that a snake is unaware of it's general condition. It is completely unaware of how clean it's cage is.

stmelangell,
If you put a heat light or rock in the cage the snake will very often wrap itself around the source of heat. Often times when there is a malfunction of the thermostatic regulation of the temperature in the mechanism, the snake will suffer severe burns. Do you suggest that it caused pain to the animal? If it did cause pain why did the animal not move away from the source of heat when it became injured? I will suggest to you that it did not hurt; or if it did hurt, the snake did not care. However the injury will often cause death to the snake. It had every opportinity to move away from the heat source, but coiled around it until it became mutilated. Anyone who has had much experience with snakes will suggest that you not use those types of heat sources because they very often result in the death of the snake. The snake does not have the brain capacity to realize that he is harming himself. He needs the warmth, but cannot discern the difference between the amount he needs and what will kill him. Oh and incidentally deer are much more intelligent than snakes. They are less intelligent than man; but boy do they scoff at rednecks every winter in the woods huh? That may suggest that they outsmart the hunters right? Nope, instinct, and natural selection! Incidentally are you a Pat Benetar fan? (I am) Love the fire and ice reference.

Daraee,
Also realize that even a lowly snake will move toward its own feces too. Sometimes they coil around it because it at times retains more warmth than whatever other substrate the habitat has as a bottom. Snakes do not care about dook at all, of course large accumulations of feces could at some point become unhealthy depending on the number of air exchanges per hour. I made the comment about the brocoli because as ridiculous as this sounds, a local humaniac group wants to force its vegan beliefs on a fourteen foot Burmese Python. They still feed the animal rats (just enough to sustain it), but keep brocoli available to the snake in hopes that someday the snake will try the brocoli. Cute, and funny in my opinion, just fairly silly I am sure we will all hear about the day it eats the brocoli, if ever.

MarK Kumpf,
I concur!!! Call it anything at all, Love or whatever you wish. I call it instinct, and natural selection. NO one should be mean to anything if they don't have to. Doing mean things to chickens and cows is ok at the very end cause I wanna eat them. But I believe in being kind. I am also for America. Do you love America?

ACO278,
The snake was not pissed, he has no emotion. He can be dangerous though.

Cruelty to snakes sure can stir up some folks huh? Again I love animals and I am for America. Just the facts maam, please! (Joe Friday). I hope no one dislikes me know. I need all the friends i can get.
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2006
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A GREAT book to read is called When Elephants Weep, The Emotional Lives Of Animals. It is by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson and Susan McCarthy.

EVERYONE should READ it..if they have not already

It is a Great read.

Sunny
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"The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated".

"Saving just one pet won't change the world, but, surely the world will change for that one pet." You might be the only love they know in their life.

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly

You can either be the cure or the disease.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2006
jimbo jimbo is offline
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Some animals are extremely intelligent. Some animals do exhibit evidence of emotion. I think snakes and elephants are as far apart on the spectrum of intellect as they could possibly be.

I believe that many animals are extremely perceptive, thereby giving humans (who have yet to figure out how to circumvent the language barrier between animals humans) the idea that they are intelligent.

One should consider that our percpetion of intelligence is largely based on how domesticated that species of animal is. Horses for instance are less intelligent than pigs. Yet anyone who has handled both should be able to tell you that there is a fair amount of evidence that suggests the equine is more intelligent. Are horses more domesticated than pigs? I actually lost a debate with my animal expert friend on the issue. I contended that horses were smarter, based on the fact that I thought they were more trainable. there is evidence to the contrary. I do believe that horses are the most perceptive animals on the face of the planet. I think mine know my intent better than I do most of the time. Even though I lost the argument concerning them being more intelligent than pigs; my friend did conceed that even though pigs were smarter than horses, horses were alot more fun to ride.

Once again I never suggested that snakes don't deserve the very best care that one can provide. In fact, that is exactly what I believe they should have, the best one can provide. However I do want to educate whenever possible about the fact that they are more like a living exhibit when kept as pets. They must be cared for, cleaned, and fed. The caretaker should realize that even though more and more of these animals in the pet trade are captive bred, they are far from domesticated. You basically have a wild animal that takes less space to duplicate her natural habitat, and feeding regimen, than most others, save maybe fish and ant farms.

In closing I am glad that you love your snake, and wish you all the luck in the world. Do learn what you can about her, and realize that she will be a snake no matter how much you love her, and thats ok.
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2006
jimbo jimbo is offline
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Hey Mark! I was just looking back at the posts here. The alliteration you use is very elloquent my friend. You bust out react and remember first, and then comes the coup d' et`gras. Guinea Pigs, Goldfish, Golden Retrievers, Ghandi, and the Greatness of a Nation, all referenced in one sentence, brilliant simply brilliant. Was it intentional or was you "jes rollin'"?
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2006
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Call it love, call it instinct - I don't care which. Animals react and remember. No matter what level you ascribe to them, be they gold fish, guinea pigs, or golden retreivers, I offer them all the same leverl of respect as I think Ghandi was right when he said that the greatness of a nation and its morals will be judged by the way it treats its animals.[/quote]

WELL SAID Mark And I couldn't AGREE more

Sunny
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"The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated".

"Saving just one pet won't change the world, but, surely the world will change for that one pet." You might be the only love they know in their life.

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly

You can either be the cure or the disease.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2006
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Actually Jimbo...Elephants are one of the most intelligant animals on earth.

Sunny
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"The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated".

"Saving just one pet won't change the world, but, surely the world will change for that one pet." You might be the only love they know in their life.

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly

You can either be the cure or the disease.
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