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  #11  
Old 12-25-2006
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Bexley, you're something of a contradiction if you don't mind me saying so.
I must take issue with your position, but I ask you to remember that it is not my wish to attack, despariage or insult you in any way, I simply have an opinion that differs greatly from your own.

On the one hand, you lament the pet overpopulation crisis, having witnessed it first hand, while on the other hand, you are actually contributing to the problem by creating more pets that might need a new home one day-or worse, land up in someone else's shelter.

In one part you say the following:
One of my horses came from a breeder. I bought him because I knew his half brothers and I adored their personality and attitude. He's been everything I've ever dreamed of in a horse and I love him dearly.
That's fine and you are entitled to rationalize your actions in any manner that pleases you, but may I submit the following:
This same kind of attitude is exactly why breeders are able to stay in business-in our society we then to follow our "wants", even if we don't recognize the long-term effects of the things we do.

Then on the other hand, you lament "irresponsible" breeders and I'll admit, they are a problem-but couldn't one make the argument that in your unique position, seeing the problems that ACO's and shelter staff confront first hand each and every day, your breeding more animals into a world that you know doesn't have homes for all of them might be considered irresponsible to a certain extent by some.

How can we, as animal welfare workers, ACO's and shelter volunteers tell people that they should spay or neuter their pets while we're turning out offspring of our own pets for whatever reason?
Some might call you duplicitious, others might go so far as to lable you a "hypocrite".
Don't you think it's important that if we're going to preach to others about spaying or neutering their pets, shouldn't we set the example?

I honestly believe that those who are breeding animals that are to be sold, shown or studded out (Where can I find a job like that?) are catering to a demand from consumers that keep the irresponsible breeders in business while fostering, even encouraging the attitude that we can have the "custom" pets we want while never giving an animal in our of our shelters a chance, all we have to do is call a breeder and they'll hook us up with the pet we want.

I'll tell you a little about myself, I'm a good salesman and if you come to my shelter and I sense that you're serious about the responsiblilty of owning a pet, especially a cat, if you come to my shelter you'll be taking one home.
One of the "hooks" that seems to work pretty well is, "Well yes, certain breeds of cats have certain personality traits, but there is no way to assure that the cat you buy will have any of them, on the other hand, I adopted one of my cats from this very shelter and I'll tell you, she never failed to meet any of my expectations of what she "should be" becasue I'm always discovering something new about her-so she really can't disappoint me. You're going to spend a lot less money for a cat that will love you just as much."

Another point that I must bring up is the money.
If I had my way, there would be a $500 permit required for each litter of pups or kittens bred for sale with the money directed towards day-to-day shelter needs, new equipment, educational material-you know, the things we're always asking for but never seem to have the money in the budget to buy.
We catch you without one, we drop-kick you with a fine 3x the permit, to be used for the same purpose, less the courts commission of course.

I would also ask of any breeder, why do you produce more animals than society can provide homes for?
Answer usually is, "Oh, I don't do it for money, I do it for the betterment of the breed" or "Oh, I do it to imporve the bloodline"
Then I would ask "So why the outragous price?"
Answer: "Well, to cover MY expenses."
Response form me: "Gee whiz, it seems to me that while your stated purpose might be altruistic, it seems that you want someone else to pick up the tab."

I would also ask, do you have a business permit and report this money as income while reporting to the IRS losses, expenses and profits (if any) and paying income taxes on any profits realized?
If you are selling animals out of your home, are you compliant with local business/zoning ordinances and do you operate with a business permit?

Please bear in mind that whatever answers you give to these questions might brand you as an "irresponsible" breeder to some.

I want to share an article with you that REALLY ticked me off when I read it:
http://www.roadstaronline.com/2006/02/080a0602.asp

This woman is breeding an "exotic" cat and if she tells me she's not making a small FOUTUNE from it, well all I can say is, liar, liar, pants on fire! The article says:

To own one of these cuties, you better bring money and lots of it. The spotted little fluffballs sell for $1,000 apiece. When these photos were taken, there were nine Cheetohs lounging on and under the bunk. Do the math: That's a nice chunk of "cat-ching."
Now, if this woman expects any of us to believe that if she get's $1000 per kitten and it's "just covering her expenses", I'm sorry but she's either being overcharged by a crooked vet or she's lying.
There can be no third alternative here.

Then she goes on to say:
Cheetohs offer a unique combination of gentleness of character and a wild look that is found only in jungle cats. The breeders' goal is to have a large, sweet-natured lap cat that looks like a true jungle cat but has a completely dependable nature that can be trusted around anyone. It is a noticeably larger cat for a lap cat, with full-grown males ranging from 15 to 20 pounds and females weighing 10 to 15 pounds
Sure, that's a wonderful goal, but what will become of the animals that DON'T have those personality traits? Will they end up as that exotic-looking cat in the cage that, weighing in at 20lbs would tear your head off when you go near it?
These people are creating a HUGE cat that at some point, we're going to have to deal with and let's face it, I seriously doubt that these folks, nice though they my be are NOT genetics experts and could lose one of their toms in YOUR neck of the woods to pass on his size and attitude problems to generations of other cats for years to come.

I have six wonderful cats who by themselves make great pets, I'm sure that with selective breeding could have made some wonderful kittens and I considered it.
However, I realized that I would not be responsible for caring for these animals for their entire lives were they to be born and since that is the case, I refused to contribute to a problem that was just being made clear to me.

You can do whatever you like, but I think that my position is pretty clear-I cannot give you validation or rationalize your breeding more animals for whatever reason,
We just have too many already.

[/rant]
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  #12  
Old 12-25-2006
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Quote:
How can we, as animal welfare workers, ACO's and shelter volunteers tell people that they should spay or neuter their pets while we're turning out offspring of our own pets for whatever reason?
Some might call you duplicitious, others might go so far as to lable you a "hypocrite".
Don't you think it's important that if we're going to preach to others about spaying or neutering their pets, shouldn't we set the example?
Ahhhh, this is what I love most about "animal activists"...

They see nothing wrong with labelling a person who has dedicated their life to working with animals in a completely thankless job day in and day out as duplicitious and a hypocrite on CHRISTMAS DAY. It couldnt wait until some average every old day...

Uncle Fester, are you sure you arent a member of my extended family??? You fit right in with the Christmas Card I got the other day from someone.. It read.
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Merry Christmas!
Since the last guy you dated never did... and the current guy never will...., here's hoping you move on and find someone decent and learn to be happy...
Love, So and So...
(Included a trial membership to an online dating service...)
~k
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  #13  
Old 12-25-2006
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Posted: 12 25, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject:

Ahhhh, this is what I love most about "animal activists"...

They see nothing wrong with labelling a person who has dedicated their life to working with animals in a completely thankless job day in and day out as duplicitious and a hypocrite on CHRISTMAS DAY. It couldnt wait until some average every old day...
It seems to me that you consider "activists" as a bad thing, I think many in municiapl service would do well to remember that if it wasn't for activists, an ACO's job might be even more thankless and pay a lot less.

I didn't call Bexley "Duplicitus" or a "hypocrite", I said that "some" might consider it to be so.
What I said was, breeding animals while telling others they shouldn't and calling others who breed "irresponsible" was being contraditaroy.
Sort of like the policeman who writes you a ticket for speeding and breaks the speed limit himself to get back into position so he can catch another.

I certainly don't see what Christmas day has to do with anything, but Bexley asked.

You infer that I am an "Activist" and so so as though it were a bad thing and I'll admit that I've seen that attitude a lot. However I think that ACO's and other public safety workers failt to remember is, if it weren't for "activists", you might not have many of the things you need in order to do your job effectivly. Were it not for the "activists" hounding City Hall and demanding that our city leaders GO to the shelter (ours is old and obsolete) and LOOK at the miserable conditions that exist while those in "the department" are encouraged to keep silent by their superiors, a new shelter might never be built at all. Our ACO's are woefully silent when City Council members ask for input and rarely, if ever point out the obvious problems they must overcome-It's the "activist" who starts the ball rolling by confronting the government head-on and asking "why".
It's funny, when we "activists" are asking city leaders for and pressure them to approve the things ACO's need on your behalf, we're your friends.
But when we take ACO's to task for their own actions, we're "those activists" as though it were a derrisive term.
Citizenship gives me as well as you the right and the duty to take public officials to task when they engage in activity they discourage in others and I think that I have done so here respectfully, politely with due consideration of decorum.

It's a two-way street, K. If an ACO can label others as an "irresponsible breeder", they in turn should be prepared to defend their own actions.
There are some of us who believe that producing more animals while healthy, adoptable animals are put to the needle in animal shelters is wrong-unless of course you like putting otherwise adoptable animals down, but I don't think that is the case at all-at least I hope it isn't.

Is that how the "thin blue line" works?
Those on our side (non-ACO types) are subject to being lectured and judged on how/what we should or should not do while those on your side are justified in engaging doing whatever you deem acceptable becasue of your chosen occupation?
That is somewhat akin to saying, "Oh, well since I drive a truck, it's okay when I speed, but it isn't safe for you becasue I hold myself to a different standard"
Oh, I'm sure the Judge will buy that argument right before he says "guilty".

I too have dedicated my life to working with and for the humane treatment of animals, as well as spend hundreds and thousands of my own, uncompensated time as well as money on projects too numerous to mention, many of which are useful tools for ACO's.
The fact that it's Christmas day is a red herring-although I can't help but notice you didn't disagree with my position, you seemed more upset that it couldn't wait until some other day.....

The online dating thing WAS NOT my idea, but Mom thought you would appreciate it, she wants another grandchild-get to work!
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  #14  
Old 12-25-2006
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Down Fester. Remember what happened over at TCS? Don't be dissin' my peeps or I'll have to forshizzle the swizzle on your light-bulb enabled typing hind parts!
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  #15  
Old 12-25-2006
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The fact that it's Christmas day is a red herring-although I can't help but notice you didn't disagree with my position, you seemed more upset that it couldn't wait until some other day.....
You are right, I dont know MB well enough to know if she is or isnt a responsible breeder.

My point EXACTLY is that on the one day of the year when people are supposed to show some "charity of spirit" for their fellow man you decided to post a cantankerous lecture using choice, heated diction to someone who opened themselves up and asked a good spirited question on a board dedicated to ACOs and HLEs.

I couldnt give a crap about who is right or wrong, just the way it was delivered, and if you want to play word games about what you DID and DIDNT say or infer, perhaps you should re-read your post. I dont think I am the only person this side of the "thin blue line" who got your tone....

~k
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2006
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My point EXACTLY is that on the one day of the year when people are supposed to show some "charity of spirit" for their fellow man you decided to post a cantankerous lecture using choice, heated diction to someone who opened themselves up and asked a good spirited question on a board dedicated to ACOs and HLEs.
Trust me, you didn't even see lukewarm, let alone "heated".

Bexley alluded to "irresponsible" breeders, and I simply pointed out that others may have differing opinions that are not going to serve to validate rationilazing breeding more animals, however one chooses to justify it.
Bexley's comment about "ducking" tells me full well that she knew what was coming and I obliged her.
In a nutshell, I asked her to look at her own actions and weigh them against what the Animal Welfare Community promotes as responsible pet ownership.
And that's a problem?
I'm sorry that you took offense but is it possible my comments struck a little too close to the mark with you?
It's possible.

And yes, I did read my post and carefully proof-read it to insure that I said exactly what I mean, up to and including the comment about the "thin blue line"-here's why:
I think it's a little more than strange that there are some who discourage things that others do for (fill in your own) reasons while engaging in the very same practice themselves, wouldn't you agree?
Sort of like the crisis intervention worker who abuses his or her own spouse, the alcohol awareness teacher popped for a DUI, that sort of thing.

As far as "playing word games" with what I "did or didn't say", if you are going to throw my own words and meanings back at me, I'd appreciate it very much if they were accurate and in the correct context, relating to exactly those things that can be attributed to what I stated.

Quote:
My point EXACTLY is that on the one day of the year when people are supposed to show some "charity of spirit" for their fellow man
I'm sorry K, but the "charity of spirit" argument just doesn't apply here becasue I don't think that "right" or "wrong" ever takes a day off.
In my response to Bexley, I simply pointed out that I differed with her opinions and rationalzations for doing that which, by and large ACO's tend to discourage in others and I did so in a manner that was respectful, but firm.
I didn't take umbridge with your, which I read as sarcastic comment about being an "activist" as though being one is somwhow a pejorative. I took exception with it, but it wasn't personal.
I didn't even take offense over being a possible member of your extended family.

The day of the year isn't the issue, I find what you said here VERY INTERESTING:
Quote:
I couldnt give a crap about who is right or wrong, just the way it was delivered,
You couldn't give a crap about who's right or wrong?
So, an ACO actually contributing to animal overpopulaton, a matter that ACO's everywhere lament over isn't the problem and matters of right or wrong is something that you don't care about, but the fact that someone, a "civilian" or as you derrisively put it, an "activist" took Bexley to task over it is?
If this is the case, I think I might have been more right than many would care to admit.
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2006
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I show and train purebred competitive dogs. My experiences doing that has given me the skills and contacts to help place dogs from shelters, both purebred and mixed breeds. I have personally fostered, completely at my own expense more than 75 dogs in my home. I trained them, fed them, groomed them and sent them on to their newly adopted homes. None of these dogs would have been adopted out of the shelters either due to lack of space, need for training or grooming, or issues like the cage crazies.
In comparison, I have produced 16 puppies out of my stud dog. All the bitches and other stud dogs I've had have been spayed or neutered because I didn't feel they passed muster to be bred due to health, performance or conformation issues. I have had 8 of the 16 puppies come back to my home for love and attention and training at some point in their lives. I have talked on internet or phone to 4 of the other puppy owners. The woman who whelped the litters has kept in touch with all 16 puppy owners. Three of the owners have gone on to foster rescues..........NONE of them were involved in rescue before I encouraged them to. NONE of them would have crossed paths with me if they hadn't purchased a pup.
I have donated most of the stud fees to rescue. I have sold trophies from showing on the internet and donated all the money to rescue. The stud fees I kept, limited as they are since I keep the fee high and turn away far more than I accept, if they weren't donated to rescue, they were spent on the dog that earned them for additional health tests, training or whatever that dog needed.

A shelter vet once said to me, "people are either coke drinkers or pepsi drinkers. no matter how you sell it to them, they aren't going to change. some people want a purebred dog and you're not going to send them home with that mix pup."

And sometimes that's true. I recently helped a lady adopt a lovely boxer out of the shelter. Unfortunately the dog went home with her and put her baby's head entirely in its mouth. Due to bad teeth, the boxer was unable to do any significant damage to the baby. This lady is now bound and determined to buy a pup from a breeder. She tried the shelter and rescue. This dog was temperament tested and observed by more than one qualified behaviorist. We missed the boat on that one.

I am thankful for all the things that dogs in my life have taught me. Purebred dog sports have taught me an immeasurable amount that I pass on to the shelter critters.

There are certainly pluses and minuses to any view point and I'm glad that we are having a lively discussion about it.

MB
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2006
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Bexley, you seem to be more the exception than the rule, but I think that as long as there is a demand for a "product", there will be those that supply it and the range will run from one extream to the other.

I need a license to drive a truck, and I think you'll agree with me that there are some who should have to pass some sort of muster to breed animals-or children in some instances.

The problems I observe are, too many people, especially with Pit Bulls look at these animals as "money on the paw" and little else.
I've actually heard them inside of our shelter:
"Hey man, we git' dat dawg an put hur wif dat dawg he's got, man, we get's tree-hunnard dollars fo' dem dawgs' day has".

There are also the breeders who, if one of "their" dogs end up in our shelter, they expect to waltz in and we're supposed to hand "their" dog over to them, no fees collected and no questions asked as though we are providing THEM with a personal service becasue in thier minds, it's still "their dog".
Not according to the paperwork and State law, but they're usually not interseted in that, either.
It's nice that they show up to take the animal back, but usually the previous owner left nothing for the animals care, the breeders wants to leave nothing for the animals care and we're just supposed to sit between them and eat the costs.

As far as the anology about the Boxer and the baby's head, I think that something like this is possible with virtually any animal although some are more likely than others.

As I see things in this matter, it's a little too easy to "get into" the business of making more animals and the profits seem to blind people to the problems that they are creating by producing more animals that society can provide homes for.
I would like to see some sort of regulations enacted and enforced to deliver the message of "Hey, if you're going to do this, you're going to have to use some of the money to help deal with the animal overpopulation problem you are adding to"-Many of the "responsible" breeders will shriek and caterwaul to high-heaven over this and postulate arrogantly, "Well, I'm a RESPONSIBLE breeder!"
I personally feel that "responsible" breeders also TAKE responsibility, just as many expect trucks to pay more taxes and tolls for the roads we use.
I sincerely doubt that you would have a problem meeting any kinds of these requirements, although I get a laugh out of the CFA raising sam-hold-he11 over the state of Illinois proposing a rabies shot for cats.
It is as though they take offense when they have ANY requirement placed on them at all.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2006
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Can we tone down the racial stereotyping ?

Thanks.
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Old 12-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Fester

As I see things in this matter, it's a little too easy to "get into" the business of making more animals and the profits seem to blind people to the problems that they are creating by producing more animals that society can provide homes for.
I would like to see some sort of regulations enacted and enforced to deliver the message of "Hey, if you're going to do this, you're going to have to use some of the money to help deal with the animal overpopulation problem you are adding to"-Many of the "responsible" breeders will shriek and caterwaul to high-heaven over this and postulate arrogantly, "Well, I'm a RESPONSIBLE breeder!"
I agree. I myself is oposed to breeding. I think it is selfish, careless and greed.. Even if you are a "responsible" owner. The sole purpose for breeding is for profit.

Yes, you can be "responsible" about the whole breeding process and so on..but in the end you really have no control what happens to that animal.

All in all in the end anyone who breeds are just contributing to the pet overpopulation that we have and responsibilty has nothing to do with it.

Breeding=pet overpopluation.

Sunny
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