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View Poll Results: How do you feel about eating meat?
I'm a Vegan or Vegetarian (No meat at all). 2 5.71%
I'm a Pescetarian (The only meat I'll ever eat is seafood). 3 8.57%
I don't like the idea of eating animals but I do it anyway. 1 2.86%
I'm pretty much a carnivore and I'm okay with that. 29 82.86%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 09-18-2006
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2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea.
Sounds to me like this explains why almost all critters are scared of people...

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They are given into your hand.
In other words, take care of them don't waste them...don't waste or mistreat your food....

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3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.
Sounds pretty plain to me...

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I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.
In other words he gave us all these critters to eat just as he gave us the plants (herbs).

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4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
Sounds like another endorsement to eat meat (flesh), although not bloody flesh...
Ok, call me is sinner, I like mine medium rare.. Of course this, being in the old testament, is probably one of the sources for kosher. Being I'm not Jewish I was never taught this...too late for old dogs to learn new tricks I guess.

Also, I have nothing against anyone who wants to eat vegan or whatever. That's your choice, leave me with mine.
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Old 09-18-2006
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I eat meat. Pretty much any kind of meat. I have been lucky enough to travel much of the world and have eaten "native" plenty of times.

Some of it was good, some, an acquired taste.

I also eat fish, shellfish, vegatables, fruit and pretty much anything else.

I respect anyone who has a different view than myself, as long as they do not try to "convert" me by forcing their ideas or any stuff they read in "a book" that happens to steer their way of thinking.

As to why I eat meat? I like it. I love the way it falls off the bone when cooked slowly, I love rare or even Bleu steaks.

I know I',m going to get slammed for this, but I also love veal, Pate de frois gras and rabbit. Horse is OK but is no substitute for beef, apologies to my freinds in France.

Heading to my bunker now.......
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Old 09-18-2006
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Originally Posted by tbendall
I have been lucky enough to travel much of the world and have eaten "native" plenty of times.

I know I',m going to get slammed for this, but I also love veal, Pate de frois gras and rabbit. Horse is OK but is no substitute for beef, apologies to my freinds in France.
Please just tell me you didn't eat dog or monkey or anything that "native." I just can't imagine eating the fatty liver of duck or goose (foie gras)... or any other animal, although I know that used to be really common when I was a kid. Sorta fear-factor-ish to me. For those who don’t know, “foie gras” is French for “fatty liver.”

Plus, have you ever watched a video on how the force feed the geese and ducks to fatten their livers? It's extremely cruel, the birds actually are in cages with only their heads sticking out, and then they grab the feeders grab them by the neck and stick a tube down their throats and feed them over and over again. The animals then eat themselves to death because their livers can't function.

I've seen videos, the animals can't move around much, but after feeding they always sling their heads back and forth trying to vomit the food up. Of course, the answer to this is to grab their neck and force even more food back down.

So the animal dies because its internal organs shut down and its liver pretty much expands beyond reason, and then the liver is cut out as a "delicacy" for your tasting pleasure. I’m telling you, the videos are disgusting to watch, even for a real meat lover.

Here's a good video if anyone is brave enough to watch it:
http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/discover-foie-gras.mov

Another note. I agree that no one should tell anyone else what they can or cannot eat. But wouldn't we all agree that somewhere he have to draw the line for the sake of humane animal treatment?

For example, in Chicago, foie gras was banned in the name of animal cruelty. Now the handful of the elite population that eat this "delicacy" are selling the issue to the people as a "big brother" situation, saying that government should stay out of people's lives and not tell them what they can or cannot choose to eat. So there's a push to reverse the ban. I think it sucks because on the television every night you see people saying things like "What's next, beef, chicken, soup?"

That's so irritating. The ban isn't about taking away people's rights. It's about stopping a food that is brought about ONLY through inhumane treatment of animals. If the geese weren't force-fed and overfed, and then people chose to eat their livers, I don't think anyone would be complaining at all. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and thanks for a thought provoking post.

I think the key is education. If more people were exposed to the reality of certain issues (like the actual reality of how veal or foie gras are manufactured), I think people would feel a whole lot different about things—not everyone of course, but many.

Another video is available here: http://www.goveg.com/feat/foie/
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Old 09-18-2006
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Originally Posted by Caninelaw
Sounds like another endorsement to eat meat (flesh), although not bloody flesh...
Agreed. There may be nothing inherantly wrong with eating meat, I don't think I'd ever be so bold as to say that. But the procedures by which meat is often obtained seems inconsistent with good stewardship which the bible also talks about lots of times. So that makes me have serious reservations when I think about the way we go about harvesting animals here in our modern world. I mean, I'm not a crazy person that goes around boycotting restaurants because they serve beef and chicken and stuff like that, but some practices are extremely cruel, and others are (arguably) humane.

Thanks again for your thought provoking post!
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Old 09-18-2006
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Socrates wrote:
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But the procedures by which meat is often obtained seems inconsistent with good stewardship which the bible also talks about lots of times. So that makes me have serious reservations when I think about the way we go about harvesting animals here in our modern world.
Just curious - what would you think of a one shot instant kill of a deer, elk on any other game animal, within legal season and following regulations, to harvest the meat?
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Old 09-18-2006
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When out in the far, or middle east, one learns not to question the food put in front of you. Although the locals do like to tug on our chains about what it could have been (May be camel, goat, dog, monkey....... but probably mutton or pork!!)

At home in England we know that some less salubrious eateries of ethnic origin use cat, dog, seagull or anything else readily available. Who can tell when covered with Vindaloo, Tindaloo, Hoi sin, devil chile or whatever sauce.

This is not just urban legend, I have personal knowledge of "restaurants" caught with said items in their freezer.

As far as the way in which the food is brought to the table, maybe I am a bit of an ostrich with my head in the sand..... hmmm Ostrich, now their's a tasty piece of meat.

Seriously though, I do support the humane treatment of animals or else I wouldn't do this job. However, as an earlier post states, education is the key. Veal crates are/have been abolished in most of Europe, yet veal is still available. We can all do more to educate and we are all free to make our own decisions.

I am just not sure that bombing meat stores etc ala ALF, or the background shenanigans of PETA is the way to go either.

Heading back to the bunker........
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  #17  
Old 09-18-2006
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Hope the "you" regarding one-shot elk/deer death was meant in general for responses, not just to Socrates ...

I don't have a problem with it, as long as it's really an "instant" death, and really is needed for meat. What gives hunters the bad name is that about one person in a thousand has those two ideals in mind (at least judging by the number of injured and dead animals we find with arrows and bullets in them in this county). Even when the death is necessary, it's hard to guarantee accuracy. I've seen a sheriff take three shots to kill an injured deer from 8 feet away (admittedly he was pretty upset at the time).

I think most people vastly underestimate the amount of time it's going to take something to die when they point a gun at it and fire, and vastly overestimate their protein requirements.
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Old 09-18-2006
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From a Biological standpoint, the Human digestive system is not designed to handle an all vegetarian diet. The stomach cannot break down plant cell walls efficeintly enough to gather the nutrients needed to power the human body. If the stomach was a four chambered stomach like a cow, then we could eat plants all day long. The appendix ( which used to help break down plant cell walls) has become a vestigel organ ( an organ that is created in the developement of the human body but does not function). Our teeth are not designed to crush plant food, they are designed to cut (incisors), to hold (canines), and to crush (molars), like you would with meat, fruits, and vegatables. We are omnivores, and that is why our bodies are designed the way they are. We need proteins from all the food groups to survive.

To all the people who eat seafood, be carefull because you put yourself at a higher risk for toxins.
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  #19  
Old 09-19-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caninelaw
Just curious - what would you think of a one shot instant kill of a deer, elk on any other game animal, within legal season and following regulations, to harvest the meat?
Sure I don't mind answering that. I actually grew up as an avid hunter, raised in the stix of North Carolina. I'm still a gun owner and carrier. I don't want you to think I'm an extreme leftist or pacifist or anything (not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not me). Also, I only started talking about the biblical stuff because that's the thought path I found myself wandering down after your initial post.

I realize that what I think doesn't really matter so much in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoy discussions like this and I just try my best to provoke thought. I believe that thought leads to curiosity which leads to education which MIGHT, just MIGHT lead to conviction and change.

I don't hunt anymore. I just don't have the desire to. I remember killing so many animals; the way it felt, the rush that I got when I spotted the game or when the dogs jumped or treed the game; I remember raising my hand and taking fire; and I remember the wonderful feeling afterward, the sense of accomplishment and the bragging rights and the proud grin on my face in all the pictures. But I also remember having to suppress some sort of regret on some level pretty much each and every time as I saw an animal take its last breath and I stuck my knife into its gut to clean it and rip its flesh away from its body.

So, eventually after years of thinking about it, I finally realized that hunting is--at least for me--senseless. I am so thankful that I live in a society where I can go to any store or market and buy pretty much any kind of food I could ever think of. And since I do live in such a world, it is not at all necessary for my survival to seek a wild animal, kill it, clean it, cook it, and eat it. That is already done for me. So, it seems to me that my reality is quite different from the reality of the biblical characters. In those times, they had no choice but to hunt and kill animals for survival. That's how they made their shelter, clothing, food, and many of their supplies in those ancient days. (Again, thank God that we don't have to live like that). So, for me... good stewardship involves taking from God's creation only what is required and necessary for my survival. The bible speaks often of moderation, using resources wisely; such is considered virtuous.

Where am I going with this? Well, when I kill an animal with one shot, it may be humane, and it may not be "Sin," I would never claim otherwise. But, since there are already tons of dead animals in the grocery store for me to buy--animals that were raised and killed humanely specifically to serve as food--and since I can buy that meat for only a few bucks, it doesn't seem wise or responsible for me to go and kill another wild creature for food. It just seems like waste of God's creation, and a waste of time and energy. Again, this is only my opinion. It's not a judgement on all hunters.

Here's a good example that might explain what I'm saying. I love fishing. I go down to the coast sometimes and fish with my old man. Good times. But in the past year or two I've thrown back every fish I catch. (catch and release). Why? Because I can get the same fish in the local market. It tastes just as great and it has already been harvested and prepared for me. To me, that is better stewardship than the wasteful and unnecesary killing of an additional creature by my own hands.

On hunting... Hunting and killing an animal can certainly be humane. I just don't see the point in it this day in age... except for sport, or for fun. So, is killing an animal for survival the same act of responsible stewardship as killing an animal for fun? I'm not convinced. Additionally, I look at the methods used for hunting. Trapping, in my opinion, is cruel and inhumane. I could go on for hours about that, but I'll spare you. Hunting and killing an animal with one shot is certainly humane killing, right? Yes. But HOW was the animal hunted? If hunting is a "sport" who is the referree that is in place to keep the balance between both teams? Do both teams play by the same rules? Again, I'm not so convinced, and history has proven time and again that the government isn't really too great at playing referree either. When I watch the outdoor channel and I see some guy with a high powered rifle and a long range scope pull up to a river bank, get out of his boat, and walk a few yards to shoot and kill a bear about half a mile away feeding on salmon (perfectly legal)... well that's not very sportsmanlike is it? The bear didn't stand a chance, and the method of hunting took no skill whatsoever. So, you asked about killing a deer with one shot so that it is a humane kill... well, if it's hunting with a fair weapon from a fair distance with iron sights or if it's running the dogs with a muzzle loader, or if it's bow hunting from a stand or hide, I think that's a bit more fair than... say... shooting a deer with a giant scope or lasar sight from a great distance, from a completely concealed hide or stand, while the animal is feeding on the corn I put out for him. Likewise, so-called "canned" hunting isn't really all that fair either, is it? I mean, take a fox pen for instance, while the "sport" of chasing the fox through the pen might be fun for the hunter, the animal doesn't stand a chance. I was always tought that being a good "sport" meant to play by the rules as your opponent--to not cheat. Does that make sense? The hunter/prey relationship is all out of whack with humans and animals. Our technology has pretty much defeated any reasonable balance there; much unlike the natural world. In the natural world, there is always a balance, as science proves, between predator and prey species. Each of them has adapted (or been created) to counter the strengths of the other. But man has far exceeded the natural adaptations of its animal counterparts.

I really appreciate very much when a hunter is following the regulations, within season, etc. But I think the regulations should be stronger in some cases, to put into place a more "natural" balance (scope limitations, distance limitations, etc). If that were always the case, I'd have no problems with the practice of hunting at all. I'd just choose not to do it, and I'd still not be entirely convinced that it is a practice consistent with good stewarship and responsible management of creation. (because we can obtain domestic meat and other food products so easily in our society).

Obviously, from all of what I've shared with you so far you can tell I am 100% against the killing of a creature only for its skin or hide. I am convinced that is definitely inconsistent with the tenants of Christian stewardship and responsible resource management (especially since we have the technology to make any product we want to make WITHOUT killing animals solely for their skins). Killing an animal solely for its hide, tusks, or teeth, is an outright act of vanity and greed, plain and simple. Wrong on so many levels (from a biblical sense).


Oh, and I should say one more thing here. If the whole earth was nuked and only me, my girl, and the animals survived--or if there were some terrible depression and all the stores closed up for months and months... I would obviously start hunting, and start wearing animal skins, or whatever I would need to do to survive. After all, responsible use of animals for survival (as granted permission by God) has carried the human race for 6,000 years. That's the natural order of things, when we find ourselves living in a very natural world. But ours, at least here in a well-developed country, is a very unnatural and commercial world; for mother nature never could have predicted the massive firepower and advance technology our hunters carry today or the massive impact the global fur and factory-farming industries have on natural beings (animals).

Probably a whole lot more of an anwer here than you expected, but again, I truly appreciate your discussion and thoughtful questions. If nothing else, at least it'll help those who read this better understand where I'm coming from when I say some of the things I say. Best to you!
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Old 09-19-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbendall
Although the locals do like to tug on our chains about what it could have been (May be camel, goat, dog, monkey....... but probably mutton or pork!!)
Gross! (lol). I'm from the Absolute truth school of thought. I don't see it as an ethno-centric thing. I just think that--unless someone is starving--certain animals shouldn't be eaten... mainly companion animals or pets, no matter where a person is from.

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This is not just urban legend, I have personal knowledge of "restaurants" caught with said items in their freezer.
I, too, know this is not an urban legend. My g/f found a cat skin--that had been tenderized with nails--in a dumpster behind a certain place where the people were of "eastern" decent. I think you can imagine what I have to say about that.

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I am just not sure that bombing meat stores etc ala ALF, or the background shenanigans of PETA is the way to go either.
I couldn't agree more with this! (I also have many other reasons for shying away from giving support to PETA, but that's a story for a different post... mmm.. maybe an idea for a future topic?)
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