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  #21  
Old 06-09-2009
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Thats exactly what I was thinking myself. To me its just like another form of racism. Ignorant, bigots. Im sorry to be offensive. But where does it say in the constitution that im allowed a certain breed of dog cause the public deems that dog suitable.

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Where in the Constitution does it say that you have a "right" to own a dog?
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  #22  
Old 06-10-2009
There'sgottabeabetterway There'sgottabeabetterway is offline
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Sizzlesizzle, man this is one hot topic.

I have handled and or observed thousands of dogs, I'm not bragging, and of those thousands of dogs I will admit that perhaps 10, yes only 10, were/are truly aggressive. I'm not talking about the dog chained in the back yard that lunges to the end of chain with it eyes bulging out of its head. This dog is acting exactly how I expect it to. It is vulnerable and it knows it, it is going to do whatever it takes to keep me away from it.

Very few people know how to train a dog to be truly aggressive (thankfully), including most so-called "dog trainers", most desocialize the dog and the dog acts aggressive out of fear. The end result is pretty much the same-puncture/laceration wounds, but the dog that is acting out of fear does more damage. Have you ever watched a litter of pups "playing"? The most confident pup will grasp/bite and hold its litter mates. The scared/skittish pup will strike out with jaws snapping biting multiple times.

It is my job to educate the population about the difference. It is my job to educate the population that a dog is an animal, and regardless of how tame or "sweet" it acts, it will revert to what it learned as a puppy "playing" with its litter mates when necessary.

I do believe that a dog that bites, whether it is an aggressive, fear or provoked bite, should be labeled by Animal Control. The dog may not be truly "Dangerous" but it definitely has proved that it is a danger to the population. I believe that it is Animal Controls responsibility to make the dog owner aware of the danger. Here we declare any dog "vicious" if it attacks and causes serious injuries (requiring surgery to repair) or kills another animal, even if the other animal is "just a cat". The dog owner is notified that should another incident occur the dog will be declared dangerous. If the dog attacks and causes serious injuries to a human or kills a dog of equal size the dog is declared dangerous. Once a dog is declared dangerous it usually must be confined within an escape proof enclosure, i.e a chain link fenced kennel with secure roof or chain link fence top secured to the ground with concrete floor, padlocked gate(s) and signs posted alerting of a dangerous dog. We have been very lax in continued enforcement once the animal is released to its owner, but we now have a bite coordinator (me ) and I intend on making people accountable.

Wouldn't it be great if everyone that owns a dog realized that their lack of education in animal behavior (a.k.a common sense) is the number one reason that the dog is acting aggressive.

Last edited by There'sgottabeabetterway; 06-10-2009 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Added the last sentence
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2009
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Where in the Constitution does it say that you have a "right" to own a dog?
Where in the constitution does it say you have the “right’ to own a car? Are we going to put everybody afoot because some people choose to drive drunk?
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  #24  
Old 06-10-2009
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Nope...we're going to license them after they are trained to drive, demonstrate proficieny to drive, and make them possess LIABILITY insurance before they drive. Drunk or sober.

If they drive drunk there are criminal penalties and civil liabilies for the damages they cause.

Pretty cool system huh?

Come to think of it dogbite.org and Mother's Against Drunk Drive have a lot in common. Not that long ago drunk driving was considered a minor offense...MADD focused on the victim's that were being killed and maimed by drunk drivers and the laws and social sensiblities shifted and drunk driving became widely considered unacceptable. I can only hope dog bite victims enjoy similar success.
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  #25  
Old 06-10-2009
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Wow....interesting discussion here!

Here are my two cents...

How can we determine which breed is truely dangerous? I think we need to remember an old ACO saying, "If it has teeth....it can bite!"

Breed specific legislation is idiotic. Plain and simple. Let me give you a senario to think about..

So yeah, you got the knuckleheads out there that take pitbulls, act completely moronic with those dogs, and now the dogs get out and hurt people in a community. This happens over and over in the course of a year. The media does what they do best....sensationalize and overhype the incidents. The public is screaming that all pitbulls are mean and nasty and will eat their kids. City counsel bans the breed. It is now illegal to own a pitbull.

But where does this end? Now the knuckleheaded owners will switch to presa's, or cane corso's, or take the pits and cross breed them, etc. Or just plain out ignore the new law! Bottom line...bad people will continue to do bad things!

My feelings are that pitbulls are right now the breed of choice for the moronic due to what they are being fed by society. Look at gangsta rap videos that have dogs in them....almost always, pitbulls that look vicious, wearing big heavy chains. They look "hard core". So what happens? Kids that watch that crap try to emulate what they see....because 50 cent or Ludicris does it! They see the news reports too....a pitbull tears someone up, the kids see it, and now pitbulls are hard core dogs that can kill someone. They want to be seen walking that bad arse dog down the street. It is now a status symbol. Perhaps this is where we need to start to reverse some of these problems....hold to task the media when they sensationalize these incidents, and the music industry when they use these dogs as props to "gangsta" the performers!

Gangbangers use pitbulls for fighting, why? Because they are strong, and usually will fight until they are dead, as well as the aforementioned societal influence. Try to ban the breed, and what will happen? Absolutely nothing!
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  #26  
Old 06-10-2009
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My feelings are that pitbulls are right now the breed of choice for the moronic due to what they are being fed by society. Look at gangsta rap videos that have dogs in them....almost always, pitbulls that look vicious, wearing big heavy chains. They look "hard core". So what happens? Kids that watch that crap try to emulate what they see....because 50 cent or Ludicris does it! They see the news reports too....a pitbull tears someone up, the kids see it, and now pitbulls are hard core dogs that can kill someone. They want to be seen walking that bad arse dog down the street. It is now a status symbol. Perhaps this is where we need to start to reverse some of these problems....hold to task the media when they sensationalize these incidents, and the music industry when they use these dogs as props to "gangsta" the performers!
Waiting to read the headline: "Rapper killed by pitbull while filming music video" pictures at 11:00 !! Now that would be bittersweet !!
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  #27  
Old 06-10-2009
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BBD, I’m not arguing the fact that there needs to be repercussions for the owners of dangerous dogs. I’ve also already said that I see no reason why a dog should be allowed to live after it is declared dangerous, which I have proposed as our city ordinance, but the politicians shot that down.

I still say a lot of the lack of enforcement you cite (and no, I haven’t taken time to open the link yet) can be routed back to the courts. In a current case I’m working on, I have done everything I can legally do, including asking the court for a hearing to remove the dogs. I did everything the court clerk said to do in order to file for the hearing, but two weeks later when I asked about the date, she said “What hearing?” She had done nothing with it.

I was asking about the fine amounts for another reason and that is when I found that our court didn’t even have fail to vaccinate in their system. I have written several fail to vaccinate citations, so now I wonder where they all went to. I’m sure you already know that in Texas a second offense for failure to vaccinate an animal is a class B, but these people I have written don’t even have a first offense on their “official” court record.

We even have it in our ordinance that after a dog has been deemed dangerous, if it is found at large again, we are under no obligation to even attempt to take it alive, the police or I can destroy it on site.

I am not opposed to any law or regulations based on the actions of an individual animal and or owner. However, I will do everything in my power to fight against any law or regulation that arbitrarily finds an animal guilty based on breed or appearance with no consideration of the animals actions. I know the BSL supporters claim that many states have upheld this violation of due process (speaking of constitution), but there are others who have overturned BSL because it is a complete violation of the owner’s civil rights to due process.
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2009
There'sgottabeabetterway There'sgottabeabetterway is offline
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We even have it in our ordinance that after a dog has been deemed dangerous, if it is found at large again, we are under no obligation to even attempt to take it alive, the police or I can destroy it on site.
Bells and Whistles are blasting in my ears. G.T.O I sure hope you or the police are 100% positive that the dog in the cross-hairs is the "deemed dangerous" dog. What do you do in the case of a purebred breed? Can you be sure that the black standard poodle staring at you from across the street is same black standard poodle that is "deemed dangerous"? I'm not playing devil advocate here, I'm just trying to make you think twice about it.
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2009
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Originally Posted by There'sgottabeabetterway View Post
Bells and Whistles are blasting in my ears. G.T.O I sure hope you or the police are 100% positive that the dog in the cross-hairs is the "deemed dangerous" dog. What do you do in the case of a purebred breed? Can you be sure that the black standard poodle staring at you from across the street is same black standard poodle that is "deemed dangerous"? I'm not playing devil advocate here, I'm just trying to make you think twice about it.
We have the same law.

3. In the judgment of the enforcement agent and field supervisor, any dog at large or other animal that is dangerous, vicious, or fierce and a threat to human safety that cannot be safely impounded may be immediately slain. All animal control officers who may be called upon to slay a vicious animal as described above will receive periodic training in the firearm used for this purpose in a manner mutually agreed upon by the City and the enforcement agent. All vicious animals slain will be diagnosed for rabies prior to disposal. Public records will be maintained by the enforcement agent for each vicious animal slaying incident, including the result of the rabies diagnosis performed on the animal.

According to this code, we the ACO's decide in the field if a dog is dangerous and if we cannot safely impound it we can destroy it with a firearm. I just hope I am not one to decide that.

Since I have been an ACO I believe PD (we don't carry firearms) has shot and killed a handful of dogs. Two attacked and almost killed a Phoenix city worker (chewed his upper arm to the bone). PPD arrived and the dogs went back after their victim. They killed both dogs.

The other one I remember well was the family dog attacked and killed a little girl. When one of the Deputy's tried to rescue the girl the dog went after him. His partner shot the dog.

Neither dogs were pit bulls.

Cheers, Scooterchic
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  #30  
Old 06-11-2009
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We have the same law.

3. In the judgment of the enforcement agent and field supervisor, any dog at large or other animal that is dangerous, vicious, or fierce and a threat to human safety that cannot be safely impounded may be immediately slain. All animal control officers who may be called upon to slay a vicious animal as described above will receive periodic training in the firearm used for this purpose in a manner mutually agreed upon by the City and the enforcement agent. All vicious animals slain will be diagnosed for rabies prior to disposal. Public records will be maintained by the enforcement agent for each vicious animal slaying incident, including the result of the rabies diagnosis performed on the animal.Cheers, Scooterchic
That doesn't read like the same law that G.T.O was referring to, his ordinance states that if a "deemed dangerous" dog is found running at large "again" it does not have to be taken alive, it can be killed.

I interpret your law/ordinance as a judgement call, and a reasonable one at that, it protects both citizens and A.C.O's from an immediate threat.

I interpret G.T.O's ordinance as referring to a dog that has been previously "deemed dangerous" and is not properly contained. I wouldn't pull the trigger, even if I carried, nor would I order a LEO to pull the trigger unless I was 100 % certain, without any doubt, that the dog was previously "deemed dangerous"
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